If nationalization is scandalous violence for you, let me say I want him to get the french treatment.

China doesn’t pretend that their media is unbiased, though. There’s no aura of unbiased media in China.

What they “pretend” to be doesn’t matter, what matters is the thoughts they want to put on the people who read it, why they want to, and how many of them do read it. Any and all state media or state collaborative media tries to paint the state it comes from in a good light. This is not somehow more benevolent or less manipulative when it’s done by China, even if “it’s easy to circumvent” or “people know it’s biased”.

Meanwhile, Facebook’s head of global threat intelligence, is literally a US intelligence plant

According to its CEO and founder Ren, Huawei’s corporate culture is the same as the culture of the CCP, “and to serve the people wholeheartedly means to be customer-centric and responsible to society.” Ren frequently states that Huawei’s management philosophy and strategy are commercial applications of Maoism.

Ren states that in the event of a conflict between Huawei’s business interests and the CCP’s interests, he would “choose the CCP whose interest is to serve the people and all human beings”. Qiao and Marquis observe that company founder Ren is a dedicated communist who seeks to ingrain communist values at Huawei.

I wonder if WeChat and TikTok are any different, too.

Bing has 100 million DAUs worldwide. Reddit has about 55 million DAUs worldwide. LinkedIn has about 22 million DAUs in the US. Twitter has about 54 million MAUs in the US. Threads has about 8 million DAUs worldwide (though probably less now, lol). 1-5% penetration of total users in terms of usage is indicative of very high awareness.

Last October, China clamped down on some VPNs

So basically, it’s easy to do, but illegal, but it’s rarely persecuted? That’s a really weird policy.

No it’s not. Much like you aren’t a CPC shill/russian bot/whatever, no one commenting on a lemmy post is a psyop agent with a secret agenda to manipulate everyone. Those guys have the entire media, they don’t need to hire people to pretend to be redditors. Just because you believe it really really hardly doesn’t make it true.

I get what you mean, but the other guy brought up democracy as if it was the be-all end-all solution.

Yes. No democracy, no support from me. “But the US isn’t democratic!” Which is why I don’t support it either. Not sure if the other guy is the same.

Countries that disprove OP’s point about democracy being the solution

No country disproves that democracy is needed. “Benevolent dictators” (all dictators think they’re benevolent) die. If you think a dictatorship is doing well just give it a few years.

most urban people either know how to flip the firewall or know someone who can - it’s really not that hard.

“Yes they censor everything, but it’s easy to circumvent!” is not an excuse. How accurate is this really though? Do you have any sources to prove this is the case? Genuinely interested.

As if the large media organizations in the US don’t all cite reports from “independent think tanks” that are conspicuously all funded by the same billionaires and manned by “ex”-US intelligence.

Chinese news cite chinese think tanks, both entities funded by the chinese government. How is it any different? Doesn’t China have more billionaires than the US too?

followed by USA/capitalism works best and is only system that works (does not)

Neither me not the person you were responding to said this. They criticised China on something - you made up the “hence the US is good/only thing that works” line. You just assumed if anyone thinks anything slightly remotely bad about China it’s because they’re an evil idiot liberul!!!. It really is just a reflex for you people no?

It’s not about brains, it’s about the flow of conversation. Everytime someone calls out China on anything there’s always a bunch of people that immediately say “Ah yes because the US–” No one is talking about the US. No one is saying it’s any better. It being a shithole too doesn’t magically make China not one. If that is the only thing you have to say then you don’t actually have an argument, just the vibe that it’s le based epic AES wholesome chungus country and if they do anything wrong it must be propaganda or not actually done by them.

This not an argument. You can’t respond to “X is doing something wrong” with “OH AS IF Y IS ANY BETTER” when literally no one was talking about Y. You’re just trying to derail the conversation. If you’re going to defend China stick to your guts and defend China, don’t attack completely unrelated countries implying I must think they’re any better, they’re not.

At least most people in Russia and China can distinguish between the truth and the party line.

I am sure that most people in the country with the largest censorship firewall in existence know the truth any better. And before you say B-B-B-BUT AMERICA— Yeah they censor shit too. I hate both of them.

So… no, you don’t have an actual point to make.

Yes yes we know America is bad too, now do you have an actual point to make?

Vote with your wallet

When are we going to finally accept that this is nothing but a delusion? How many failed boycotts over and over will it take?

I’ve seen countless times of things we need being completely ignored by the system. When it’s inconvenient enough it will simply never get passed. We can fight for it, and win, but if the same system remains in place, once again, what we won was a concession that can and will be taken away at the nearest chance. You showing me an example of a rich youtuber followed by millions of people being able to do it doesn’t change what the situation is like for regular people like you and me. You can do both if you want to, just don’t think emailing a bunch of rich aristocrats is going to ever have a reasonable chance of being meaningful. Seriously, if you want to make real change, join an org.

Also, “extremism” just means things that go against the status quo. It’s not a synonym for “bad”.

I didn’t ignore it. I said what we achieve working within the system is a temporal concession and thus it’s not actually a reliable and deep change. It’s good, but it shouldn’t be the only thing we do.

I’m not being defeatist at all. Quite on the contrary, I’m telling you to fight.

My point is that fighting within the system never works. Everything we achieve that way eventually gets taken away from us. As long as the ruling class is still in power, they simply benefit the most from granting us as little as possible, and so they will always search for ways to do just that, and to take away things they previously granted us if they think we wont be threatening enough to take them back.

That’s why I am saying, do not hire lobbyists or email politicians or something. Or if you do, make sure it’s not the only thing you do. Join an org. Join an union, a party, a syndicate, organize. That is what has brought, brings and will bring real change. Fight against the system.

Why would you ‘shut up’?

Concessions are given, the radicalization stops as the standards of living improve. People are satisfied and don’t pursue the deeper systemic issues. Once the radicalism has died down, efforts are made to remove those concessions. Sometimes it does not work, a lot of the times it does. The rise of neoliberalism was one of these efforts, the most succesful so far.

Passed laws just don’t evaporate into thin air after they’re done being passed, they continue to exist.

They don’t evaporate, they get repealed. Tons of things do. Roe v Wade, police defunding, literal underage labour laws got repealed this year. The Paris Agreement almost worked, but thankfully protesting brought it back.

Not everything was about slavery.

I’m not talking about slavery. Every fundamental working right we have comes from fighting. The 40-hour work week and 8-hour work day, the abolition of child labour, the minimum wage, pensions, sick leave, paid overtime, the right to strike… even weekends are thanks to fighting. Look it up if you don’t believe me.

You may notice some of these things have been dissapearing recently, and that’s exactly what I’m talking about. They were concessions given to us so we stopped being a threat. They don’t perceive us as one anymore, and so they’re trying to gain more power for themselves by stripping us of the things we earned. And part of this threat reduction is precisely the insisting on working within this “democratic” system, which will never meaningfully challenge them, because it is for them, by them, and controlled by them.

As I said, the things you don’t get by fighting are purely concessions so you shut up. When you do shut up, they get taken away. Every single fundamental working right we have was fought for with blood, not votes.

What corpos are really afraid of is us organizing. They have always been. That’s all we have to do. Advocating for people to send emails (since none of them are going to have the money to hire lobbying firms) will just feed them back into the system, the same way voting does. Makes you feel realized when it never fundamentally changes anything for good.

Working within the system will never give us what we need. The system is made for them. All we get are concessions that then get taken away when we’re no longer a threat. No company, no matter how much popular support, is ever going to allow this. You’d have far bigger chances of making far bigger changes if you joined an org. Any org.

Thank you for being willing to engage sanely in the first place. <3

You made the point that the Black Army was critical to the war effort. I made the point that the USSR was also critical to the Black Army’s war effort.

The relevance to the discussion should be apparent. I’m not sure how much clearer I need to be.

I have literally never disputed this. I’ve never met an anarchist that did. Of course, its always the case that according to MLs they know plenty of anarchists that say they want to burn little babies alive, but I even conceded that whoever thinks this isn’t the case is wrong. You keep bringing it up as if its a super own that changes everything, it really doesn’t.

Right. So you’re obviously operating under this notion that the Makhnovists were intending on a path of peaceful coexistence with the Bolsheviks. There’s a very clear pattern of outright antagonism towards the Bolsheviks across Makhno’s reign. This “UwU I’m just a smol anarchist bean who wants to be free to do my own thing, why not just leave me be?” routine doesn’t hold waters.

It seems to me like you made up an angry baby anarchist in your head to be mad about instead of going against anything real people believe. It’s very clear the relationship was extremely wary and purely out of political convenience, and once again, I’ve never met any anarchist who disputes this, much less well read people.

To just pretend that the anarchists persecuted and purged the poor little innocent bolsheviks out of nowhere and for no reason other than ideology is just as idiotic and ignorant of what was really happening. Once again, we are all supposed to excuse and understand and give the benefit of the doubt to and even support bolsheivk attrocities no matter how repressive, bloody and absurd, but anything bad an anarchist does is “those evil anarkiddies!!!” with no other context or reason.

There was a very serious distrust that the bolsheviks were just taking advantage of them and treating them like useful idiots, giving basically scraps as “aid” with increasingly pressuring terms and conditions that they would not even get that if they didn’t immediately stop being anarchists (a tactic they would repeat with catalonia btw). It is completely understandable that they thought the very openly anti-anarchist bolsheviks that were helping out were going to backstab them when they had the chance to. What would you have done in that situation, smartass?

In fact, while we’re talking about it, it’s funny that you’d demand such a thing for a group which did not extend the same idea to the Mennonites and the German settlers. Strange how you’d demand this for one group and yet apparently have no concern about extending it to others

Whataboutism (and a bunch of propaganda).

Can’t wait for another reply from you which relies on vibes and convenient narratives to summarily dismiss historical facts which go against your beliefs.

The only one trying to push a narrative here is you. By your own admission that was the aim of your entire post.

Can’t wait for more handwringing over a gasp! Lenin pfp. (I bet you don’t do this for the gang-raping and ethnociding Makhno when you see his pfp, do you? Spare me your feigned outrage and your hypocrisy.)

What exactly is hypocritical about not arguing with someone who… agrees with me? You spare me the propaganda too, please.

Makhno PFPs have been some of my best friends and among the most kind and honest people I’ve ever met. On the other side, I’ve yet to meet a Lenin PFP that treats me with basic respect, you being no exception, so excuse me for being wary.

Can’t wait for an anarchist to assume a position of unjust hierarchy over my own opinions on the matter.

What the fuck are you talking about? Are you just trying to carve in as many “owns” as possible into your post? We’re in a forum entirely consisting of people who dislike everything I stand for, you really don’t need to.

…I’ve made one effortpost. I’ve written it on some factors in Makhnovia.

Are you planning to sign up to my Patreon or something? If not, by what right do you demand that I write on topics that you feel are the most important for me to research and write about?

Sorry if I expressed myself wrongly. I never demanded you to do anything. I said that the USSR had a tendency to abandon any socialist movement that wasn’t exactly aligned with theirs, one that they carried to their grave. You said you’re soon going to talk about Catalonia, and I merely said that this applies to statist leftists just as much.

Sigh… as usual, engaging with you people is always incredibly pointless and frustrating. As many accusations of “vibes only” you always throw, you always mainly rely on giving a vibe of owning the other person, just like conservatives.

You can’t have a basic conversation with another person, you must always be disrespectful, mocking, smug, belittling and angry. That’s so much more important to you than an actual argument, that you always end up showing a complete and utter lack of understanding of even the most basic principles of what anarchism even stands for or wants, while claiming you know it better than us. I don’t know if this mentality just stuck to you after reading so much Lenin or if it’s a genuine tactic, but every single one of you I’ve met has always done the exact same thing, no matter if I approach respectfully or not.

I’m extremely tired of this argument and I’m going to disengage. I hope you have a good day.

I am sorry for being agressive. I mostly assumed you thought the same things as the person you were quoting. I appreciate that you at least admit you aren’t well read enough, that’s more than most people I talk to.

I’m happy to receive some recs I can follow up on.

I really appreciate this too. Thank you. I think as a direct expanding on what I’m talking about, this essay is very good:

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/anark-the-state-is-counter-revolutionary

It’s available on video form too, but the video doesn’t have citations.

Here’s a good rebuttal of On Authority:

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/london-anarchist-federation-the-problems-with-on-authority

A modern and a classical reading on how anarchists view authority and power:

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/anark-power

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/mikhail-bakunin-what-is-authority

I’ve come across plenty.

Cool. They’re wrong. Doesn’t change what the USSR did.

And the USSR provided critical materiel to the Makhnovists at a time when they had dwindling supplies so, in turn, the USSR helped the Makhnovists survive but yet again, historical facts escape the convenient narrative it seems.

Seriously, what’s the point of insisting on this? Even assuming that we for some reason never knew about the soviet aid (We did, what kind of anarchists are you talking to?), what they did in the end is still deplorable.

If we’re helping each other survive, and once you can survive on your own (in a big part thanks to me), you shoot me in the back of the head, it doesn’t stop being something shitty to do just because I expected it, or because you had helped me too before you decided to shoot me.

Stick around for my effort posts on Revolutionary Catalonia and, eventually, the Kronstadt Rebellion I guess. There’s plenty more to learn from history.

Can’t wait for another Lenin PFP to say the sabotage didn’t happen, and if it did it was minor, and if it wasn’t it was their fault, and if it wasn’t they should have expected it, and if they did they deserved it anyway, and if they didn’t anarchists were sabotaging too, and if they weren’t well they still couldn’t endure it so clearly anarchism doesn’t work.

Also… why do you stick to anarchism? What I’m talking about happened with statists too. Hungary, Yugoslavia? The fucking Sino-Soviet split?