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white western leftists will literally be like “yes I’m a socialist… I just hate everything that socialism has done in the world and I’ll gladly defend anti-communist efforts when they don’t directly effect me”
They’re liberals who are enamoured by socialist aesthetics. It only goes as deep as the Che Guevara t-shirt
telling a white “socialist” about Che’s ideals and tactics made them look at me in disgust, and later I saw that they posted on social media that they threw out all of their “commie merch”.
These people are posers and nothing else, they will back the whites in the revolution.
💯 % true!!
Western Marxism Loves Purity and Martyrdom, But Not Real Revolution (2020) by Jones Manoel
There is a great tendency in the eastern left, according to Perry Anderson, to separate western and eastern Marxism. Western Marxism is basically a kind of Marxism which has, as a key characteristic, never exercised political power. It is a Marxism that has, more and more frequently, concerned itself with philosophical and aesthetic issues. It has pulled back, for example, from criticism of political economy and the problem of the conquest of political power. More and more it has taken a historic distance from the concrete experiences of socialist transition in the Soviet Union, China, Viet Nam, Cuba and so forth. This western Marxism considers itself to be superior to eastern Marxism because it hasn’t tarnished Marxism by transforming it into an ideology of the State like, for example, Soviet Marxism, and it has never been authoritarian, totalitarian or violent. This Marxism preserves the purity of theory to the detriment of the fact that it has never produced a revolution anywhere on the face of the Earth – this is a very important point.
Every movement that appears to stray a bit from these “pure” models that were created a priori is explained through the concept of betrayal, or is explained as “state capitalism.” Therefore, nothing is socialism and everything is state capitalism. Nothing is socialist transition and everything is state capitalism. The revolution is only a revolution during that glorious moment of taking political power. Starting from the moment of building a new social order, its over. Revolution is always a political process which has two moments: a moment of destruction of the old capitalist order and taking power, and a moment of building a new order. The contradictions, the problems, the failures, the mistakes, sometimes even the crimes, mainly happen during this moment of building the new order. So when the time comes to evaluate the building of a new social order – which is where, apparently, the practice always appears to stray from the purity of theory – the specific appears corrupted in the face of the universal. It is at this point that the idea of betrayal is evoked, that the idea of counter revolution is evoked, and that the idea of State Capitalism appears in order to preserve the purity of theory.
Yes, I acknowledge the system is broken, our democratic rights are actively being whittled away as we are pulled deeper and deeper into the maw of a beast that treats us as expendable resources meant only to line the pockets of the ultra-wealthy. We’re given the smallest necessary concessions by a slew of invariably corrupt political hacks to placate the masses and obfuscate atrocity after atrocity in their endless quest for the violent exploitation of every living being below them.
THAT’S WHY I VOTED DARK BRANDON THIS ELECTION, BLUE WAVE ROLLLLLL
I agree, but you’re allowed to romance a black person in Baldurs Gate, I’m gonna have to get on the Trump Train this time
A two party system is way to close to a one party system…
…sounds commie to me.
The Dems make the two party system way more pernicious than a one party system, because of how the Republicans enable them to shoehorn whatever conservative they want.
The pure (libertarian) socialists’ ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed.
To quote Parenti: They support every revolution except the ones that succeeds
socialism is when the government does things
and that’s good 
Western “socialists” who don’t believe in internationalism are just petty labor aristocrats who are mad that they’re not getting their perceived fair share of looted super profits.
That fascinating thing is when they just pick one AES to support. All the rest are ebil authoritarian tankies, except one.
That reminds me how the Albanian communist party once declared itself the only Marxist-Leninist party and all others were revisionist. Decades of theory perfected only by Comrade Hoxha
You forgot the part where anti-revisionism lapsed for over three decades after Hoxha’s death until his reincarnation as Comrade Wisconcom
I love my socialist president Joseph Biden!
The only Tankie I recognize
Yes, I would like one, uhhh, high speed rail network with a side of, uhhh, universal healthcare, hold the genocide and secret police, please.
Their secret police.
Our civilian police.
Their “authoritarianism”.
Our law and order.
Their concentration camps.
Our massive prison industrial complex enforcing slave labour on minorities.Also there’s no proof of a genocide going on in China. The main proponent of the accusations is the Falun Gong and Adrian Zenz - a man on a divine mission to crush communism, who has made frequent and egregious “errors” in his translation and methodology.
On the other hand countries in the EU are funding refugee “camps” like that on Moria, with conditions so horrible people are fleeing daily, and the EU is funding border patrols in Turkey that make use of excessive force. These actions would by any fair definition be genocide.
Likewise the United States is far from innocent, both at the border with Mexico where there’s many reports of militias hunting refugees, and in the large prison-industrial complex which houses the largest prisoner population in the world - a population that has an outsized number of minorities. These are worked to death. By any fair definition the US is carrying out a genocide.
However it is these countries’ accusations we should somehow take seriously? Why? Why should we take What France claims China is doing at face value, when France itself is embroiled in colonial wars in Africa? What reason have these countries given us? The United States especially has a proven track record of lying in order to foment ill will against a geopolitical enemy.-
No one disagrees that america had committed atrocities and generally sucks with its foreign policy. Most educated people in the US are happy to admit and fight for change within the government on that. It is not denied.
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Has china allowed for international investigators to investigate the situation in Xinjiang?
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You’d be surprised how many Yankee “leftists” aren’t aware of basic stuff like the Radio Frees, the current indigenous genocide, school to prison pipeline, or the sanctions against the “authoritarian” AES countries (causing a lot of their real issues), among many others, and are very willing to side with their own meddling against countries that are actually trying something because they might be “not true socialism.” Even if all accusations against Cuba or China (I don’t know that much about Vietnam or DPRK) were correct, they’d still be the lesser evil by a long shot.
There were other visits too, but NATO countries are mostly intentionally boycotting the investigation. I’m pretty sure any person who can do tourism in China can go there so long as they don’t break laws. But I remember a recent article where NATO countries were advising against travelling there, for mysterious reasons.
Oh definitely. Education is important, and it is important to acknowledge the faults of your community. I make a point of being aware of the ugly parts of the past and present.
Regarding Xinjiang - Arab League nations have a huge financial interest in staying on China’s good side. I worry that the billions of dollars of investment creates a conflict of interest. It makes it difficult to see them as trustworthy in this particular matter.
It also conflicts with the findings of the UN human rights office.
I recognize that this isn’t the most solid evidence, but my local kabob shop owner is Uyghur from that area. They say they left before it became bad, but they have friends and family who are experiencing what the UN office is saying firsthand.
Regarding Xinjiang - Arab League nations have a huge financial interest in staying on China’s good side. I worry that the billions of dollars of investment creates a conflict of interest. It makes it difficult to see them as trustworthy in this particular matter.
Its interesting to me that you asked about international investigations, but when they were provided, you found a way to reject it (saying that global south countries are inherently untrustworthy because of financial incentives.)
Like, what you asked for was provided. It was just not from countries that count as “international community” to you.
It also conflicts with the findings of the UN human rights office.
So do claims of genocide, but you’ll make those anyway.
In regards to your local shop owner, you realize that Xinjiang was genuinely a dangerous place back in the day? And people leaving for their own safety doesn’t automatically mean its the government’s fault. There were terrorist attacks and radical extremists festering in the region until the government finally started taking steps to combat it, and its now safer than it has ever been.
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Most educated people in the US are happy to admit and fight for change within the government on that.
Really? When was the last time “most educated people” fought against the US government?
Has china allowed for international investigators to investigate the situation in Xinjiang?
Literally yes.
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Great idea! Hey USA, one HSR and Universal Healthcare? Instead of all that police and genocide plz thanks.
You are forgetting all the racism, xenophobia, homophobia and transphobia, white supremacy and Christian supremacy
I am.
Secret police is what you call an intelligence agency of a country you don’t like
Do you want the end of capitalism yes or no
Careful, I’m expecting the Western leftist “yes but I don’t support any socialist attempt that ever actually worked”
Well that depends. A giant meteor will technically end capitalism. What’s the point if we’re not striving to improve everyone’s quality of life?
If you want the end of capitalism you’ll support whatever it realistically takes to dismantle it. And that won’t exactly be an “open” or “transparent” process while it happens. Simply put, the collective force that replaces capitalism will have to coerce certain people into accepting the change, if nothing else but for the safety of that new administration (IE avoiding rightwing takeovers, legit sabotage, hatecrimes etc).
Just remember that about anticapitalism - whatever form it takes, it’s no dinner party. Even after a revolution, certain people try to resist things they have no material reason to oppose. Those people are reactionary - directionless, even dangerous unless they’re re-educated or have privileges restricted.
I appreciate that. It’s not lost on me that a lot of communist regimes got really fucked up by trade embargos, sanctions, counter-intelligence campaigns, etc. Power is rarely ceded willingly, of course. However, my primary concern lies with improving the quality of life for everyone, or at least maximizing the well being of the population. Part of that equation, for my point of view, includes the ability for people to think and speak freely without fear of reprisal by the government. Say what you will, but I’ve hosted eight different exchange students, including one from Russia; none were concerned about answering questions about their home country except for the kid from Hong Kong. I asked them whether they identified as a citizen of Hong Kong or of China first, because I was hoping to get an irl sample for how Hong Kongers actually felt, but let them out of the question when I confirmed with them that that was a sensitive question.
If you’re living with a boot on your throat, does the distinction really matter if it’s a capitalist’s boot or a communist’s boot?
If your concern is quality of life, then you should be glad to know that all socialist countries, including of course the USSR and China, have radically improved the living standards for their massive citizenries in every metric that matters.
What use is being supposedly free to criticize the U.S. gov’t when 1) every living standard is worse, 2) our education and media feed us so much lies we blame our woes on everybody BUT the gov’t, or for the wrong reasons, 3) you secretly can’t because if you effectively do so you will be blackbagged and disappeared or assassinated?
Your singular Hong Kong kid is not a representative of an entire country or even Hong Kong. Why was it sensitive? Because he feared CPC would come and turn him into meatloaf…or because he feared his parents would? In MY personal, anecdotal experience, fascist parents/grandparents are the greatest source of anticommunist fear.
These are all pretty good points. I’m trying to do better about regulating my social media time, so I’ll use that opportunity to consider them. Thanks for the discussion.
This lib seems pretty cool
If you’re living with a boot on your throat, does the distinction really matter if it’s a capitalist’s boot or a communist’s boot?
Try looking at it from the point of view of the oppressed class who is benefiting from communist rule, and being harmed by capitalist rule, rather than from the point of view of the super rich people.
Unless I happen to be mistaken, poor people get the bullet, too. We just don’t hear about it because they’re not famous. I’m taking a wild guess here, but I suspect that the muslims in Xinjiang aren’t exactly what you would typically think of as the capital owning class. You can’t even (practically, I’m sure there’s some loophole or asterisk here) be critical of the bad ideas of your government, just shut up and kill more sparrows. As far as I can tell, it’s trading oppression for sparkling oppression.
Nobody has been killed in Xinjiang. There is a reason its original liars had to specify it was a “cultural genocide,” which it isn’t, either. Like the full break down?
If you’re living with a boot on your throat, does the distinction really matter if it’s a capitalist’s boot or a communist’s boot?
“Does it really matter if I can expect to live to 75 instead of 30, if I can’t call the president a doodoo head on social media?”
Yes, it matters a lot.
Another commenter shared an article by the AP where the reporter got to ask people in Xinjiang how things are. One lady at a shop casually mentioned that business was slowing and got talked to by a party minder. You can’t even have idle chat without getting invited to camp. That’s not quite the same thing as being able to talk shit on social media.
You can’t even have idle chat without getting invited to camp.
Source?
Also I give AP News zero credit when it comes to reporting on China.
Part of that equation, for my point of view, includes the ability for people to think and speak freely without fear of reprisal by the government
This is like the people who say “We’re freer than the Chinese because I can call Trump a peepee poopoo pants on Twitter without being arrested!” when that doesn’t actually do anything at all
but if you try and protest and change conditions materially and meaningfully, you can absolutely bet your ass you will be disappeared like the horror stories you find on reddit about “totalitarian regimes”. The only reason why Americans don’t think it doesn’t happen in the West is either because it’s so completely internalized that it becomes memeified (“Haha, I hope the FBI agent watching me through my camera is having a nice day!”) or none of the media that they engage with reports on it.
IMO, this entire point is just a liberal ideological bludgeon, a condition that can be applied at-will to any government they want to criticize because no government will be good enough all of the time. it’s one thing if you’re an anarchist and oppose every government equally for not fulfilling that condition, that I can understand and respect, it’s quite another when you’re like “Oh, no, I hate authoritarianism! That’s why we need to constantly criticize a country on the literal other side of the planet 99.7% of the time, and then only criticize our own country when somebody calls us out on it by saying ‘Oh, yeah, America also does bad things too!’” Especially when America’s role in the world for the last century at least, and more accurately really since its conception, has been a source of capitalist reaction across its whole hemisphere and later the whole planet, with hundreds upon hundreds of military bases and tens of millions directly and indirectly killed in wars. Criticizing, say, Cuba or DPRK for these sorts of things is effectively zooming in on a single corpse in righteous indignation while ignoring the seas of blood spilled by America behind you.
I mean, yeah, I am anti-authoritarian before anything else. That’s basically where my problem with China, among many others, begins and ends. The US has a lot of big problems that need fixing immediately on that front, and that’s without getting into the bodies under the front porch. We could go into that, if you like, I just didn’t think it was particularly relevant at the moment.
What country isn’t authoritarian?
Pick an AES state of your choosing. What is the minimum you think they would have to do to resist U.S./capitalist efforts to destroy it?
It’s cute you think you would actually win the argument with the “bodies under the front porch” (in your words), considering how this whole thread has been going for you so far.
In this post: what you get when your brain attempts to synthesize the concept of socialism on top of its liberalism instead of trying to discard everything you know first (liberalism) and learning again from zero to grasp Marxism.
That’s exactly what it is! I really like the way you put that comrade. That connected some synapses for me lol
we must all kill the liberal part of our brain, every single day
Remember when Mao cast Firagaga on China and incinerated the entire population?
a fireball throwing Mao would be so rad!
Couldn’t even manage a yes or no question.
Answer the question weasel
Our secret police like the FBI? And our genocide like in North Korea?
Yes. The point of view here is anti-authoritarian.
There has been no genocide committed by a socialist country, no need to point out any of the dozens committed by the U.S. alone.
There is no war in Ba Sing Se
There has been no genocide committed by a socialist country
You only had to provide one example to disprove a claim of this sort, and you couldn’t do it?
I’m sure whatever I say you’ll have some precooked answer, so I’d rather make a fun comparison
“I have no argument that you can’t refute, so I’m just going to behave in bad faith”
yes, totally owned us by quoting a children’s cartoon when prompted to give evidence for genocide, good job redditor.
shit I regret affording you a first warning ban and should have gone for the perma ban. You sound super privileged, it would do you some good for someone to tell you no once in your life.
Liberals really do get all their politics from childrens media. You going to quote Harry Potter next?
hold the genocide and secret police,
you support Land Back and abolishing the FBI then I assume?
What genocide?
Do you know the actual truth of the Holodomor or Xinjiang? Are you willing to know?
Comrades who are jumping straight to retorting are unwittingly making it seem like, “well yes, there was a genocide, but it was worth it.” Please do not allow any gap in our response that allows this interpretation. There has never been a genocide committed by a socialist country and we should make it clear we will not cede that atrociously false accusation.
Agreed. Unfortunately, they didn’t respond to me, so they probably won’t respond to you.
I’ll hijack this comment to try to summon Parenti quote bot
The quote
In the United States, for over a hundred years, the ruling interests tirelessly propagated anticommunism among the populace, until it became more like a religious orthodoxy than a political analysis. During the Cold War, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them. If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.
– Michael Parenti, Blackshirts And Reds
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the admins of this instance if you have any questions or concerns.
Your contention is that Stalin committed no genocide? What do you call it, sparkling ethnic cleansing?
Do you call the Dust Bowl and Great Depression a genocide? Words have meaning.
You love to present overdramatic accusations when a famine occurs in a socialist country, and there’s usually only one big one.
Edit: If you’re talking about something else, please elaborate as to your specific allegation.
I asked you for a source earlier and you didn’t respond.Edit 2: I stand corrected; I conflated you with a different user, but I’d still appreciate your source. Unfortunately, due to the lateness of this edit, the instance admins have already banned you, so I probably won’t find this out.
You didn’t ask me for shit earlier. This is my first comment here.
The Dust Bowl and Great Depression is a thing that happened. What occurred in Stalin’s reign is a pattern, that included famines. Were the famines specifically engineered to kill off specific groups? I don’t know. But when you take a holistic view, and look at executions, gulag assignments, forced resettlement, deportations, and, yes, famines, there was very clearly a genocide under Stalin.
Millions of people died as a direct result of Stalin’s policies and actions. I don’t know if they were all with intent, but many definitely were.
I don’t understand how anyone can defend Stalin. I guess people deny the Holocaust too, so there’s that.
I guess people deny the Holocaust too, so there’s that.
By trying to paint the Soviet Union as genocidal, you are denying the Holocaust. Simple as.
Woof, that’s some leap.
A ‘leap’ made by literal jewish Holocaust scholars.
That’s right bark again you fucking lapdog for the establishment.
Millions of people died as a direct result of Stalin’s policies and actions.
And the dust bowl was the direct result of the US governments policies and actions, so why is only one of them “a thing that happened,” you raging hypocrite?
Are you capable of reading and processing information? Nevermind that the Great Depression was a worldwide catastrophe. Nevermind that it’s thousands vs millions of people. Did you notice where I talked about the larger pattern in the USSR? There wasn’t just one famine, but a shitload of things causing the deaths of millions of people, many of which were fucking executions.
Are you capable of reading and processing information?
Are you?
Nevermind that the Great Depression was a worldwide catastrophe.
Point to where I mentioned the Great Depression.
Nevermind that it’s thousands vs millions of people.
What methodology did you use to determine your numbers? And why would it matter anyway? Is it not a genocide if it’s bellow a certain amount?
There wasn’t just one famine
Yes there was, unless you’re counting the one caused by the Nazis flattening half of it, in which case I’m just going to write you off as a Nazi apologist.
but a shitload of things causing the deaths of millions of people, many of which were fucking executions.
Yes, that is indeed true of the USA, so why is the Dust Bowl “Just a thing that happened”, but the famine that happened in the same time period in the USSR not?
Prisoners in the United States jumped from 120,284 in 1923 to 210,418 in 1933. (Source (p. 210))
Executions increased to 197, the highest number in US history, in 1935. (Source)
The U.S. forcibly deported one million of its own citizens to Mexico in the 1930s. Source
Since you’re probably using an intentionally ridiculous US estimate, I’ll use an intentionally ridiculous Russian estimate and say that seven million people died from the Great Depression. This Russian estimate uses the same intentionally ridiculous methodology of the U.S. one.
Put together, why isn’t this enough to declare that a genocide happened in the U.S.?
Nice whataboutism. But fuck it, I’ll bite. A genocide has absolutely happened in the US, funny that you didn’t hit on it.
Let’s play a game. I’m going to call it, “can we agree on some basic facts?”
Stalin, through his policies and leadership, killed millions of Soviet citizens. True or false?
A genocide has absolutely happened in the US, funny that you didn’t hit on it.
So you’re denying genocide now.
funny that you didn’t hit on it.
Apologies for the confusing wording above. That’s because I was comparing two similar events to see if you would call it a genocide when the U.S. did it. If you did, I’d question your definition of genocide, but at least accept you’re applying it consistently.
I absolutely agree with you on that basic fact — the US has engaged in countless successful genocides against indigenous peoples.
Stalin, through his policies and leadership, killed millions of Soviet citizens.
False.
First of all, to attribute deaths solely to one individual (even to Hitler) denies anyone else responsible of their free will in doing so.
@[email protected], would you mind holding this lib up to scrutiny since the one on Hexbear didn’t respond?
It’s crazy - we all actually tend to agree on most things. We all sort of agree that the US government has committed atrocities, that wealth redistribution is what we should be striving for, that billionaires suck, that universal healthcare is good, all that good shit.
But they are stuck on the idea that their favorite governments can do no wrong.
Not really; we have no problem with actual, reasonable, criticism of AES nations, we just have no time for “100 MILLION DEAD! AUTHORITARIANISM! GENOCIDE! REDFASCISM!” nonsense.
“I agree that the U.S. is evil and has been the objective bad guy in every war it’s ever been in (and the US has almost never not been at war) but I believe the U.S. wholeheartedly in matters of foreign policy”
Of course they can do wrong. We acknowledge legitimate criticisms, but we’re going to refute slander against socialist governments.
If you compartmentalize counties in war to “good guys” and “bad guys”, you’re really going to claim that the US was the bad guy in WW2?
I apologize for the bad terminology, but I’ll stick with it to answer your question. Even in WW2, the Soviets were the “good guys” and the US only intervened when it was obvious the Soviets would win to stop a communist Europe.
Got it. In any war, communists are “good”, everyone else is “meh” or “bad”. It’s real telling that you’ll call the Soviets the “good guys” but not any other European nations.
I trust international investigation and evidence uncovered by reputable journalists.
If a country refuses to allow international investigators to do their job, that is a significant red flag.
I trust international investigation and evidence uncovered by reputable journalists.
Killing landlords and fascists is not Genocide, and putting “secret” in front of “police” to make them scarier to you is childish. Of course I imagine you probably aren’t afraid of the regular police wherever you are, I wonder why.
If you’re accusing us of supporting “genocide and secret police,” you should provide sources to back up your claim.
I was saying I support the secret police.
China and DPRK are not socialist. They are fascist states in a costume of socialism
You know “Fascist” actually means something and isn’t just a synonym of “place I don’t like”
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When someone says something like you did, I am reminded of this random Reddit commentor who, on the r/anarchism subreddit, answered “Nazi Germany could be considered to be an anarchist revolution in nature” because, according to them, anarchist revolutions happen (regardless of your intent) anytime you revolt against authority or the established system, no matter what you want out of it or how it turns out, you’re an anarchist.
You remind me of that person, bless.
well there were anarchists who went into coalition with mussolini (not many). It was mainly the anarchists who were so anti-soviet that they were willing to join any movement that was anti-soviet
actual anarchists 100% fall under the umbrella of ‘tankie’
Lol if you think anarchists wouldn’t be labeled “tankies” for not toeing the NATO line
Because almost all of them (not Marx) are authoritarian power hungry dictators/dictatorships? Seriously… Is OP implying that East Germany was a good socialist country? Wtf are they on? Did the USSR have queer rights? What about Vietnam? NORTH KOREA!!! Animals have better rights there. OP is either a fourteen year old, terminally on discord, bullied dude. If that is the case, I’m sorry. Have been there… However, if this is not the case, then OP is just extremely extremely stupid.
Is OP implying that East Germany was a good socialist country? Wtf are they on? Did the USSR have queer rights?
East Germany was literally the most progressive country in human history in terms of queer rights. Cuba is now.
East Germany was literally the most progressive country in human history in terms of queer rights. Cuba is now
a large part of that was the mass migration of Eastern Germans after unification to Cuba especially doctors. And their belief that it was embarrassing to not have solid gay rights in a socialist country.
I wasn’t aware of queer history in East Germany. Thank you guys for enlightening me there. I am also very happy for Cuba for the strides that they have taken in relation to queer rights.
That being said, calling them “literally the most progressive country in human history in terms of queer rights” is very dumb. Most of western Europe, Canada and even parts of the US to a certain degree are as progressive as one may get in terms of queer rights, both legally and socially.
Most of western Europe, Canada and even parts of the US to a certain degree are as progressive as one may get in terms of queer rights, both legally and socially.
Yeah, 80 years later. Compared to a country that has not existed for over 30 years lol. Google what Biden, Hillary or Obama thought of gay and trans rights in the 1990s.
Well, you said “most progressive in history”. Which is clearly not true.
I didn’t say that
Is OP implying that East Germany was a good socialist country?
you know east germany was the first modern european country to make being gay legal right
And West Germany put gay men back into the camps
East Germany was actually solid, read the Triumph of Evil. West Germany was worse, to be fully honest and would have been just as poor without the Imperial Core banding together to build it back up.
The USSR had queer rights at the beginning of the revolution and after Stalin took over anti-lgbt laws were rarely enforced
What’s wrong with Vietnam?
The DPRK isn’t perfect but i can guarantee to you 99% of the things you’ve heard about it are false. Did you know with a North Korean passport you can go to China? NATO prevents expats from North Korea from being accepted to work elsewhere. the “13 haircuts” myth was started from a barber’s hairstyle suggestion board.
Just because all of your knowledge about socialist movements come from western sources doesn’t make knowledgeable people “terminally on discord” or a “bullied dude.” educate yourself.
Okay, so I read up more about homosexuality in the Soviet Union. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_and_LGBT_rights#Soviet_Union From the looks of it, it was legally quite open during Lenin, but progressively got worse with time. I don’t think we even need to talk about modern Russia’s position on it. Let’s look at China. Why can’t same sex families adopt children?
In case of Vietnam, again… let’s look at suppression of freedom of speech. Why isn’t the press free?
The DPRK isn’t perfect… Omg wtf are you talking about? Why then aren’t they allowed access to the internet? Why are they still stuck in the 70s? Why aren’t North Koreans allowed to emigrate to South Korea? Why is the Kim family in power for so long and uncontested? When was the last North Korean election? Who was the prime contender? Why is some soul crushing music played every morning in Pyongyang? Or are the videos of that western propaganda too? The DPRK is literally the most dystopian place on the face of this planet.
knowledgeable people Define “knowledgeable people”… Sure, western propaganda is definitely a thing. So is Chinese/Russian propaganda. Again… I’m not defending the west anywhere here. All I’m doing is refusing to idolize the socialist governments of the past and the present like the USSR. When I say I want a “socialist future”, I do not mean that I want the Soviet Union. What I want is something that is very very different than that nightmare.
Why aren’t they allowed to access the internet?
You think one of the most sanctioned countries in history that’s been spending years and years trying to build cities and roads, you think they’d have time/infrastructure to bring all of their citizens WiFi? Do you know even half of what goes into making an internet network, let alone without the support of other nations?
Why are they still stuck in the 70’s?
What do you mean by this? If you mean technology wise, see above.
Why aren’t North Koreans allowed to emigrate to South Korea?
United Nations Security Council 2397. Read it.
Why is the Kim family in power for so long uncontested? When was the last North Korean election? Who was the prime contender?
Google “Juche.”
Why is some soul crushing music played every morning in Pyongyang?
What does this even mean, link a video to it, I am genuinely curious as to what this is even referencing.
What I mean by “knowledgeable people” is people who can see past the western propaganda to take a critical look at past socialist experiments. You, clearly, still can’t see past things at surface value. Everything is black and white to you. Why can’t you look at history, current dynamics, sanctions, foreign pressure, etc, etc. Instead, you go to flinging petty insults at people whose side you should be on! You say you want something that is very very different than the soviet union? Then, I’m afraid you don’t want socialism.
United Nations Security Council 2397. Read it.
There’s that, but also they are technically still at war with each other (North and South). South Koreans fleeing towards the North have been shot at by their side.
You think one of the most sanctioned countries in history that’s been spending years and years trying to build cities and roads, you think they’d have time/infrastructure to bring all of their citizens WiFi? Do you know even half of what goes into making an internet network, let alone without the support of other nations?
So are you telling me that there is no internet in North Korea? What’s this then? A north korean showing how wonderful life is in Pyongyang on Tiktok. So there IS internet access in North Korea for average citizens, right? Or… maybe there is internet access only for a select few individuals, part of an effort in spreading state propaganda. Therefore, is the state prioritizing state propaganda efforts more than an individual’s right to free information and media? Forget North Korea. Look at China. Why do they still have the great firewall up? They clearly have very well developed internet infrastructure. Why don’t they allow their citizens access to the outside world?
United Nations Security Council 2397. Read it.
I just did. It does permit North Koreans from working abroad. It however does not prevent them from seeking asylum. Why do all North Korean asylum seekers have to smuggle themselves through China and other countries, without being caught to reach South Korea? If South Korea was the one to refuse entry to them, why do they still grant these people asylum?
Google “Juche.”
“Juche as a philosophy includes three basic elements: Nature, Society, and Man. Man transforms Nature and is the master of Society and his own destiny. The dynamic heart of Juche is the leader, who is considered the center of society and its guiding element. Juche is thus the guiding idea of the people’s activities and the country’s development.” How is not any different than fascism? “The Man, the central element that guides society”, aka the “Fuhrer”. Absolute control on media, “molding and mobilizing the people as communists”, aka purging of non-communist ideology and people who take part in that ideology… Like… Come on mate…
What does this even mean, link a video to it, I am genuinely curious as to what this is even referencing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i82PBpw2Vg0
https://youtu.be/GkaJlNjS-nM?si=aAp37umVObm_5pyO
https://youtu.be/umO1Sl8HApE?si=5801Q24ZfFW5XzXf
What I mean by “knowledgeable people” is people who can see past the western propaganda to take a critical look at past socialist 'experiments. You, clearly, still can’t see past things at surface value. Everything is black and white to you. Why can’t you look at history, current dynamics, sanctions, foreign pressure, etc, etc. Instead, you go to flinging petty insults at people whose side you should be on! You say you want something that is very very different than the soviet union? Then, I’m afraid you don’t want socialism.
If that is your definition of “knowledgeable” then you’re missing one very critical element. You’re missing the part where you need to look past all propaganda, which includes Chinese/Soviet/North Korean, etc. sponsored propaganda. Things are not black and white to me. I understand (or at least try to) individual ideas that are good and bad from all corners of the world. The soviet union did some things right. It did many things wrong. I want to replicate the things it did right. I do not want to replicate the things it did wrong. China lifted millions of people from poverty. I want to copy the methods that they used to do this. This does not mean that I want to erect a firewall to prevent my countrymen from accessing the outside world. I want collective ownership over means of production. I want unions to exist. However, I do not want to run over my own countrymen with tanks because they disagreed with me. I am an athiest. I want a society free from the shackles of religion. However, I do not want to outright ban religion. I want free elections. I want to go even further and have direct democratic practices in all possible places. I do not want a state monopolized media. I do not want the President of my country to be President for life. I want socialism. I do not want authoritarianism. I do not want there to be a super powerful class posing as “political leaders”. I want public housing, healthcare, education, etc. I want collective ownership over AI. At the same time, I still want to be able to make fun of the President. So on and so forth…
I do not want authoritarianism
begging you to read the Jakarta Method, but I’ll give you a quote from it if you won’t! (also, read On Authority by Engels please it’s so short)
quote here
This was another very difficult question I had to ask my interview subjects, especially the leftists from Southeast Asia and Latin America. When we would get to discussing the old debates between peaceful and armed revolution; between hardline Marxism and democratic socialism, I would ask: “Who was right?”
In Guatemala, was it Árbenz or Che who had the right approach? Or in Indonesia, when Mao warned Aidit that the PKI should arm themselves, and they did not? In Chile, was it the young revolutionaries in the MIR who were right in those college debates, or the more disciplined, moderate Chilean Communist Party?
Most of the people I spoke with who were politically involved back then believed fervently in a nonviolent approach, in gradual, peaceful, democratic change. They often had no love for the systems set up by people like Mao. But they knew that their side had lost the debate, because so many of their friends were dead. They often admitted, without hesitation or pleasure, that the hardliners had been right. Aidit’s unarmed party didn’t survive. Allende’s democratic socialism was not allowed, regardless of the détente between the Soviets and Washington.
Looking at it this way, the major losers of the twentieth century were those who believed too sincerely in the existence of a liberal international order, those who trusted too much in democracy, or too much in what the United States said it supported, rather than what it really supported – what the rich countries said, rather than what they did.
That group was annihilated.
- Vincent Bevins, The Jakarta Method
Here is a copy of “On Authority” on prolewiki.org.
Here is a search for “Jakarta Method” on annas-archive.org
Queer rights in the USSR means that every single socialist project that ever was is… le bad!
I never said that. There were many things that socialist governments did very well. I’m literally a socialist. It would be hypocritical of me not to approve of these policies. Now that being said, I don’t feel the need to glorify these same states either. There were MANY things that they did VERY badly. I do not want to replicate these governments. When I say that I want to implement socialist policies, I do not mean that I want to have a great firewall. By this, I do not mean censorship of literally every fkin thing.
I do not have to idolize former or present socialist governments to be a socialist.
I do not have to idolize former or present socialist governments to be a socialist.
Nobody said that. But you have to educate yourself. Otherwise you’re just a poser.
And you haven’t educated yourself. This is what we are doing, all of us, here right now. We’re trying to educate you on socialism.
We’re trying to educate you on socialism
I fail to see how you managed to do that. I did not learn anything new about socialism. Sure, I learnt that East Germany decriminalized homosexuality one year before West Germany. I learnt that the original USSR constitution had legalized homosexuality. I also learnt that this positive trend reversed in the years that followed. I also learnt that there are quite a few of my socialist comrades who weirdly glorify authoritarian states in history (I saw a few defending the DPRK).
I fail to see how you managed to do that. I did not learn anything new about socialism.
That’s your problem. Do you see me coming into your house to pee in the plants and break your plates? Frankly we’ve been very patient with you. And I personally still intend to be. But patience in this case does not mean I also have to be polite.
Do you see me coming into your house to pee in the plants and break your plates? No? What’re you talking about?
But patience in this case does not mean I also have to be polite. Okay? Again… what’re you talking about?
Is OP implying that East Germany was a good socialist country?
Yes, and the majority of East Germans agree.
Why have you linked an article from fkin 2009 lmao. Did you look up “East Germans love East Germany” and link the first article that you saw? What poll is this article referring to? Pewresearch (2019) say something very different. According to their surveys, East Germans have reported a dramatic rise in quality of life post 1991.
East Germany deserves to be commended for their efforts to Denazify their territories, in Blackshirts and Reds, Parenti mentioned that they got rid of 80% of the judges in East Germany for their Nazi ties. And they did actually have decent LGBTQ rights
No arguments or facts just vibes based ranting. Also most 14 year olds in the West have the same view on Socialist countries as you
Fair. Here r some arguments for you:
- The Berlin Wall: Why wasn’t I, as an East German permitted to go west if I wanted to? Why were families separated during the entire thing? Was it to keep the hopeless western Germans from emigrating to the East?
- The Holodomor: Why did the Soviet Union commit genocide against its own citizens?
- Freedom of speech: Why would the KGB be on my ass if I said anything against the State? Why wasn’t the media critical of the government? Why was Chornobyl covered up?
- Why did the USSR destabilize Afghanistan?: Wasn’t this an act of imperialism? Or were they trying to liberate the poor wittle Afghani children by killing them using cruel weapons like butterfly mines? Did the USSR really need to go in there
- Why do literally all Eastern European countries hate Soviet rule? Had they loved it, they surely would’ve kept the policies of the USSR, right? Or is the CIA involved here too?
- North Korea: Let’s not even talk about them…
- Why was state enforced atheism a thing in the USSR? I am an atheist. However, I still believe that everyone should have the right to have faith in whatever institutions that they seem fit. Is that dumb? Yes. Should the state get to decide what’s dumb and not? No.
- China: Why is the great firewall a thing? Why do they refuse to allow their citizens to connect to the wider world?
Now, someone here is most definitely going to come up with the “but the US did XYZ” argument. And I wouldn’t disagree there. However, this isn’t a competition of “who’s the bigger asshole”. Glorifying any states or institutions is plain dumb. As a socialist, I want to do good for the people of the world. I can’t do good if I ignore the atrocities committed by the people “on my team”.
The Berlin Wall
Preventing brain drain and smugglers. Prices were fixed in the East and smugglers would buy on the cheap in the East and sell for a profit in the West. Berlin should have never been divided in two in the first place, this was proposed by the the western powers to have a foothold for counter-revolutionary activity. It was their ploy, and their ludicrous plans. https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Anti-Fascist_Protection_Rampart
Holodomor
see this page https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Holodomor and the one linked at the top there as well.
Freedom of speech
Freedom of speech is a recent asinine invention. Did they have freedom of speech during the Terror? No, because you need to control propaganda and counter-revolutionary activity. You could protest for tons of things in the USSR btw, but you couldn’t protest to call for the dissolution of the socialist system. Pretty reasonable.
Afghanistan
The legitimate government of Afghanistan asked the USSR for help against the Mujahideen funded by the CIA. The goal of the US was to draw the USSR in a long proxy war, putting Afghans at risk, to drain their military resources. https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Soviet_intervention_in_Afghanistan
If you want to go there the US was the one who had no reason to be there, once again meddling into another country’s affairs. They also committed the Highway of Death massacre. I don’t get why you care so much about what a country that has not existed for 30 years did some 50 years ago when you have a very much alive and very much barbaric country doing worse right now.
Eastern Europe hates USSR
They don’t. I don’t know where you get your news but you should look for another source.
The countries that see more benefit than harm were the countries that were mostly left out. A developing country will have unequal development so this isn’t surprising. Turkmenistan represented 3 million inhabitants out of almost 300 million. You also have to take into account where these countries came from before the revolution but I digress.
North Korea
Why are you refusing to talk about them? Go ahead. Talk about them. I know what you’re gonna say. You’re gonna say the exact same thing your “progressive” media of choice is saying about the DPRK. What your school says about the DPRK. What TV says about the DPRK. Things we’ve heard hundreds of times before that we used to believe too (I hope you don’t think we used to live under a rock before we emerged as communists) until we actually started reading source material about the DPRK and realized it’s actually not at all like the media says it is.
state atheism
who cares seriously. Plenty of people don’t live in secular countries but they themselves are atheists or non-practicing and they don’t whine half as much as you do about it. We have communists on this platform living in officially Muslim countries like Indonesia or Iran and they don’t give a shit about it. Seems like the most random thing to complain about. Just reeks of western privilege. Do you think people in Tsarist Russia had a choice to be atheist? How do you think that would fare for you when the Field Marshal came by your village to investigate potential revolutionary activities and he, as a faithful Orthodox Christian, learned you hadn’t been in church for a month or more. Get some perspective.
Great firewall
So that they could develop their own tech solutions. I don’t see what’s so difficult about it. Oh, the horror, China does not have access to shitty braindead tiktoks, we need to bring them freedom in the form of ICBMs! Seriously, who gives a shit. Have you asked the Chinese what they think of the firewall? They don’t care. They love their local tech solutions, their own social media, and the laws surrounding it. They get a VPN if they want to see whatever the fuck racist crackers are saying about them and COVID-19 conspiracy theories. And then they realize, damn we have it good in China.
I can’t do good if I ignore the atrocities committed by the people “on my team”.
So instead of “ignoring the atrocities on your team” (in your words), you just go straight for state department propaganda. But I don’t think anyone here is under any illusions you’re on our team.
You seem somewhat reasonable, so I hope you can realize these two things: - you can’t bring up anything we haven’t heard before and - everything you were taught about communism is wrong; we don’t love Stalin for killing Ukrainians, we simply have evidence to show that it did not happen like you believe it did. These are two very different things.
They don’t. I don’t know where you get your news but you should look for another source.
OP said Eastern Europe. Probably, Hungary, Romania, Poland, etc.
Preventing brain drain
So the state should have control over who goes out of the country and who doesn’t? Freedom of movement is a human right. You know that, right?
see this page https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Holodomor and the one linked at the top there as well.
Bruh… Seriously? You talk about western propaganda when you link an article that references a website called “StalinSociety”? Come on now…
They don’t.
Uhhh I was referencing Soviet occupied countries like Poland, East Germany, Hungary, Czechia, etc.
Why are you refusing to talk about them? Go ahead. Talk about them
Uggh cuz it’s fkin obvious, that’s why. Cult leader, no democracy, public executions (source being North Korean asylum seekers. Oh, but they must be western propaganda too, amirite?), suppression of freedom of speech, suppression of freedom of movement, etc.
who cares serious
See? That’s your problem. “They fucked athiests, so we fuck them back”. You’re just like them. I am safe near you right now because I agree with you. What if I don’t? Religion plays a major role in people’s identities. That’s dumb, sure. But that doesn’t harm you in any way. Sure, tax the churches. Do all that. However, if someone wants to practice their religion, let them be.
So that they could develop their own tech solutions. I don’t see what’s so difficult about it. Oh, the horror, China does not have access to shitty braindead tiktoks, we need to bring them freedom in the form of ICBMs! Seriously, who gives a shit. Have you asked the Chinese what they think of the firewall? They don’t care. They love their local tech solutions, their own social media, and the laws surrounding it. They get a VPN if they want to see whatever the fuck racist crackers are saying about them and COVID-19 conspiracy theories. And then they realize, damn we have it good in China.
So the internet is just for braindead tiktoks? Is it not for free media that criticizes the government? Is it not for ideas outside the official governmental/societal narrative? Do economically protectionist policies justify suppressing an individuals right to free information/education? I can access Chinese socialism and its workings from official chinese sources freely. Can a Chinese individual do the same via Google without a VPN? I can have e2ee conversations with my friends via Signal (which has no privacy issues too) about communist ideals. Can a Chinese individual say “Fuck the CCP and Jinping the Pooh” on Signal? No, cuz Signal (an open sourced application) is banned in China.
My mistake, I can see now your liberalism is terminal. The only thing we can do is pull the plug. But before I do, allow me this one pleasure:
Freedom of movement is a human right. You know that, right?
Source?
Uhhh I was referencing Soviet occupied countries like Poland, East Germany, Hungary, Czechia, etc.
Source?
Cult leader, no democracy, public executions
Source?
I am safe near you right now because I agree with you
Source?
Religion plays a major role in people’s identities
Source?
Sure, tax the churches. Do all that. However, if someone wants to practice their religion, let them be.
Source?
Is it not for free media that criticizes the government?
Source?
Do economically protectionist policies justify suppressing an individuals right to free information/education?
Source?
I can have e2ee conversations with my friends via Signal
Source?
Can a Chinese individual say “Fuck the CCP and Jinping the Pooh” on Signal? No, cuz Signal (an open sourced application) is banned in China.
Source?
There are people a lot more capable of answering your questions here than me, but I want to link a few videos about the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea:
My Brothers and Sisters in the North - A documentary about the lives of people in the DPRK done by a South Korean-German woman that gave up her South Korean citizenship to film it.
Loyal Citizens of Pyongyang in Seoul - A interview with 2 North Koreans living in Seoul that aren’t allowed to go back to the North, despite wanting to.
We Went to North Korea To Get A Haircut - A video from the channel Boy Boy demistifying some stuff by actually going to the DPRK.
COREIA DO NORTE: LUCAS RUBIO - This is a recent interview in a brazilian podcast with Lucas Rubio, a researcher about the DPRK where he talks about the country, ranging from the war to his personal experience visiting it. The whole episode is in portuguese but from the little bit that I tested, the automatic translation to english is decent enough, although it misses a few things and get some names wrong.
I don’t think a person who writes like you do has any standing to call other people fourteen year olds.
What about Vietnam?
What about Vietnam? What’s your problem with them, they don’t even get as much shit made up about them as the others.
So your sole criteria for freedom is if a country has queer rights? … And you call others children?
Good news everyone, US imperialism is no more: you can marry your partner! (Terms and conditions apply)
So your sole criteria for freedom is if a country has queer rights? Well no. Many more things. Queer rights are just one of these parameters that are easily visible in my opinion. Let’s talk about freedom of speech however. I can access the internet in any way that I want in Canada. Can I do that in China? Nope! Say hello to the great firewall! I can protest the government (mostly) in western countries. When I do that in China, I get run over by tanks. Tiananmen Square massacre much? Oh… is that western propaganda too now? I can make fun of Biden, Trudeau, Trump, etc. Can I do that in China?
Being a socialist doesn’t mean I have to glorify any of the former/present socialist countries and ignore their problems (which there are A LOT of).
It don’t mean you have to uncritically swallow state department propaganda either but here we are. You seem like the kind of socialist who wants free healthcare built on the backs of immigrant workers but don’t care when your country bombs hospitals in Pakistan or Syria.
Well, I’m an immigrant of color myself. Also, I vehemently oppose the military actions of my country in the middle east. I also oppose Russian aggression in Ukraine for the same reason. Somehow, “socialists” here only agree with me on the middle east part.
Average liberal response: “Woah wow! Look at this opinion, amirite? Clearly we’re dealing with a grade A muggle, amirite? You’re stupid. Q.E.D.”
