I love watching this strawman over and over.
Of course Biden is better than Trump. He should still stop supporting genocide.
Just going to preface this by saying yes please vote for Biden. If nothing else he is not openly fascist and he will not himself actively work to forward queer genocide and the removal of women’s rights. Please vote for him. If you’re not going to take any measures to change this system and have resigned yourself to existing within it, do one good thing for women and minorities.
If you think it’s fine for a totalitarian fascist state to become established and to mass murder queer people, don’t even fucking bother responding to me. If you’re saying “don’t vote and also don’t revolutionize. Just let trans people and women fucking die” then fuck off. You’re not even worth engaging with. If fascism takes over and my friends, my family, my loved ones and my community are mass murdered I’ll remember how you watched it happen and did literally nothing. Our blood will be on your hands.
I’m not engaging further in this thread.
It’s amazing how passive and tolerant the working class has become of the state. If half the energy that was devoted to arguing about why the system sucks but can’t be changed was instead put into organizing and committing to revolutionary action… Actual real-world change might have already happened.
Like, what’s the line for people? They took away women’s bodily autonomy. What about if they took away women’s right to work? What if they did away with the 40-hour work week? What if they made it so only land owning whites could vote again? Like, where is the line that people will respond by actually trying to change the system?
“The system is broken, but I’m not here to talk about why we should materially do anything to change that” like what kind of argument is that? Are you just going to watch as fascism literally takes over and then try and revolutionize? If Trump wins, are you then going to try and change the system? After the guy who’s definitely a-ok using the military on civilians takes over?
Is this just what it’s going to be forever? Forever arguing for the lesser of two evils, the person who will still cause human suffering but not as much as the other guy? Why are so many people seemingly resigned to this status quo? “It sucks but here we are,” like what?? Even when revolutionary thought is put forward, people say that it would never work, as though no revolution in history has ever worked or achieved any of its aims. Which is just wrong. Neo liberal propaganda has got yall so bad that you genuinely believe that Western capitalist democracy is the only possible way for society to exist and that any and all attempts to change it are impossible.
Biden literally signed into law a resolution that took away the ability of railworkers to strike. This is one of the most anti-union and anti-worker moves from the legislative and executive branches I have ever seen in my entire life.
My choice is between that disgusting sack of shit, and an even worse more putrified fascist disgusting sack of shit scumbag pondscum asshole.
I will not be voting for either, and instead will be selecting the candidate available to me on the ticket most closely matching my priorities and convictions. Either way, the electoral college will look at my vote and immediately trash can it to put the true vote to one of these bought and paid for pricks. Happy fucking democracy, what a goddamn joke.
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that one was horrible. i think that strike could have sparked another workers rights movement to the likes of the one 100ish years ago.
I think that strike would have caused economic shortages and disruptions that would have been blamed on Biden while conservatives took advantage to blame both unions and democrats.
There is about a zero percent change Americans are organized or pro-labor enough that they would have supported that strike once it impacted prices and product availability.
forget the politicians blame game, they are doing just that right now, despite strikes or lack thereof. all for show, fuck them.
the important part are the worker rights we could have permanently earned, just like our right to the 8hr workday back then.
i dont care if one side gets to get to power over another as long as we have the worker power to bend them to our will. you seem worried about republicans but it ended up being democrat biden who illegalized strikes for an entire industry. this is really bad in the medium to long run.
about having the people agreeing with it, most people supported it, and im doing my part right now in talking to the ones seemingly on the fence.
This precisely. Anyone who is arguing otherwise is being intentionally misleading. Republicans were practically salivating at the opportunity to attack Biden on economic issues.
Maybe there’s a reason why leftists hate democracy - because they are too politically naive for it.
Republicans were practically salivating at the opportunity to attack Biden on economic issues.
Well, thank God we avoided that outcome! As long as the Dems just cater to what Republicans want, we can ensure that Republicans won’t resort to baseless accusations.
I don’t like Biden either, he’s done things that offend me too. But it doesn’t matter. Assuming Biden or Trump will win the general, then the only rational move is to pick one of them. Your vote can only make the difference between 1st and 2nd. You can’t make the 3rd place candidate jump to first, and you certainly can’t cause the winner to be nobody.
If you wanna vote for a candidate who matches your priorities and convictions, the time for that is the primary stage. The general is too late for that. In fact, if Trump wins that’ll make it even harder for a more liberal candidate to win the next primary, because (as happened after 2016) a Trump victory will scare democratic voters into thinking they need to move to the center to stop the far-right.
I know, American democracy is a big disgusting knot that makes you do things that feel dirty. But just pretend it’s a game, because that’s what it is. If you wanna win in the end, that means on each turn you move towards the least bad outcome.
If you wanna vote for a candidate who matches your priorities and convictions, the time for that is the primary stage
Incorrect.
I legitimately can’t believe y’all are still doing this. Get new material.
Only when there is better evidence that primaries are fair and relevant.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/bernie-sanders-camp-fix-was-against-clinton-n817501
This is also why a no-name junior senator from Illinois also failed to beat Clinton in the primary, right? Because the DNC decided she should win?
That strawman argument is at the level of “I voted for a pigeon why isn’t he president”.
We have email evidence in 2016 of a very popular primary candidate (Sanders) being plotted against by an organisation that is supposed to uphold democracy.
A similar occurrence happened in 2020 when Sanders was up against Biden. Stalking horse candidates were used to soak up votes which were then pledged to Biden. He had no support without those votes.
Saying that people have the option to choose a candidate at the primary stage is demonstrably false.
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Biden prevented economic shortages and then turned around to help that union get the sick leave benefits they wanted anyway.
Calling Biden anti-labor is the fucking joke. Even if you disagree on the strike, he did it to prevent economic chaos, not hurt labor.
Your summary is disingenuous. Economic shortages were to be caused by railroad shareholders, not the unions.
biden prevented and even illegalized a movement that could have been just as big or bigger than the labour movement.
the economic impact gets them precisely where it hurts: rich peoples pockets. thats how you really get what you want, not by begging.
the 30hr workweek, or the fairer healthcare us people want so bad? yes, that big.
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Biden didn’t address the actual concerns. The points system is still in place, the “sick leave” has to be scheduled in advance.
The system will not change on the terms of democracy by voting. That’s clear as it can be.
It was pretty atrocious how rail workers were prevented from striking, but they did get the sick days they were fighting for a few months later thanks in part to pressure from Biden: https://ibew.org/media-center/Articles/23Daily/2306/230620_IBEWandPaid
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He also turned around and got almost everything those rail workers were about to go on strike for in follow-up negotiations
But sure, sacrifice minority lives because an establishment politician was more worried about supply chain snarl than about you getting to cum to all that juicy strike footage that wasn’t gonna come out anyways
Don’t bother coming to pride this year, we all know you like our aesthetic more than you value our lives.
Maybe if you vote for Biden he’ll be unable to continue in office for whatever reason (will leave to your imagination) and then Kamala Harris takes over. She is markedly more left wing than he is, so there is a possibility you’ll get an outcome you prefer.
Edit: should clarify that I also don’t have a horse in this race since I’m not from the states
She is markedly more left wing than he is, so there is a possibility you’ll get an outcome you prefer.
This is the narrative that mass media outlets like to tell and retell but I don’t know any US leftists that think Kamala Harris is even remotely leftwing. Literally none.
Yes she probably isn’t as awful on Israel as Biden is, but that isn’t actually saying anything at this point really, Biden is an utter catastrophe on the Palestinian genocide and it very well might lose him the election over it.
But if she becomes president during the next 4 years, she’ll be the new incumbent we can’t primary.
Ah interesting - I thought she was chosen as vice president to “balance out his ticket” and appeal to the left of the party
She’s a cop, there’s nothing leftish wing about her
When she was chosen, it felt like a purposeful insult, like there couldn’t have been a worse candidate. It felt like an appeal to the right who were mad at the anti-police protesting. We do not like her.
As a woman of color. That was pretty much it. This made Biden appear more progressive to those on the left. Her being a former cop made it more palatable to those on the right side of the party.
Can’t wait to see the electoral college throw out my vote for the third election in a row
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I think people just don’t give a shit. I certainly don’t, I want to work as little as possible and enjoy my life as much as I can before the world collapses. Hell half the time I can’t decide if living is still worth it yet I slog on hoping for another day where I get to enjoy something entertaining on twitch or a new video game to play.
I think people just don’t give a shit. I certainly don’t, I want to work as little as possible and enjoy my life as much as I can before the world collapses. Hell half the time I can’t decide if living is still worth it yet I slog on hoping for another day where I get to enjoy something entertaining on twitch or a new video game to play.
You are burnt out and ground down, that is different than not giving a shit. Nobody can judge you for being burnt out, but don’t let the fact that you don’t have the capacity to care right now fool you into believing it is anything other than an indicator that you are burnt out and ground down.
I agree But at the same time where are we starting Like I sure as hell don’t have the guts to start a revolution I’ll join one ig But getting it started is the hardest part
Its called “organizing” for a reason and there is no shame feeling like you are powerless to do this alone.
Are you really worried Democrats will start voting for Trump now or something? I’m so confused why these memes even get upvoted. It is like posting memes saying that the earth is round. Do we really need daily reminders that the world is round? If someone thinks it is flat… is a meme going to change their opinion?
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It’s for the people who are closer to dems on policy but don’t want to vote for either for specific stupid pet reason or blaming Biden for Israel.
So, do you think that constant bitching at voters will help or hurt in this regard?
Don’t vote for any criminal with blood on his hands. Don’t vote for any open or crypto fascist. The best thing you can do for men, women, and minorities all over the world is to not support any corrupted politicians.
There’s a genocide happening right now with the support of USA government where thousands of kids already die and keep getting murdered as we speak.
We allow and are complicit in these murders for every day we stand by and let our leaders do the murdering. If another attack happens on US citizens a la 9/11 then I will not be shocked or surprised, we have it coming. It’s literally a sake of national security that we remove our current leadership from power, otherwise we’re literally inviting a retaliation with blindfolds on.
By what moral framework and reasoning within that framework are you coming to the conclusion that citizens who vote for one candidate over another are morally responsible for every individual act of that leader? I’m quite familiar with most of them, and none support that conclusion.
“If you want democracy you have to be a player.” The decision to let our leaders commit immoral acts is still a decision, and one many of us make daily. Especially when they go around killing other people, if we REALLY didn’t want them to do that we would make sure they wouldn’t, but alas, they do because we’ve given them the keys to power to do so. You could then argue “They don’t represent us” which would mean we don’t have democracy, which I argue to be the case, only because people haven’t been playing their position to have it. We willingly participate in a society that gives power to murderers, which says everything about our society. This is what is being told to us while killing our people in retaliation, maybe we should start listening? Or maybe we care so little about our own victims that we want to create more.
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Can you not admit though that it is a bad look for Democrats when they push a pro-genocide candidate and act like there are no better options to defeat fascism, and then say… you either get what you get or you get total fascism.
Israel is committing the genocide. Biden should change US policy, but he is pressing Israel for a ceasefire. He isn’t Israel and doesn’t set their war agenda, contrary to how fake lefties and useful idiots talk on the internet. In addition to awful, Israel is also being stupid and doing exactly what HAMAS wants imo, its bloodshed turning the world against them understandably. I just don’t understand why people act like Biden is in control or the one to blame…its fucking idiotic.
Probably because he keeps sending them weapons while condemning what they’re doing with those weapons.
I am shocked that more people don’t see the campism on this site laid bare with the way “the left” apparently believes that Joe Biden is in charge of the Israeli military.
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What are you doing as a genocide is happening right now in gaza where thousand of kids are getting murdered?
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My “politics” are not supporting any corrupted criminal with blood on his hands. You are protesting against the genocide while literally begging people to vote one of the corrupted politicians behind it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_2023_Israel–Hamas_war
You seem the one making bad arguments because i never said women or anyone else should accept any injustice. Not voting for scum is not an “electoral protest” it’s how you are supposed to vote, assuming you are in good faith.
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What are you, [email protected], planning to do that would prevent a dictatorial fascist state under a totalitarian Trump from coming to fruition?
I’m not supporting or encouraging others to support red or blue party to begin with. Red and blue have been ruling the US for almost a century cycling in power and ruling as one. When people point out that both sides are the same they are also highlighting that regardless of the red/blue side in power government policies barely change. Many of the key people working for the government get recycled regardless of their party. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Nuland
If you are so worried about the fascist state that could come to fruition you should be worried right now about the fascist state we already have.
Are you equating Weimar Germany with the Nazi state? Do you not see the differences between those 2 things?
Read history, one of the many things that got 1920 fascists consent among the population was advertising themself as a better solution than bolsheviks and communists. Propaganda never changes, you are promoting a corrupted politicians with blood on his hands.
Queer people don’t have the luxury of abstaining.
Thousand of kids in gaza don’t have the chance to live anymore, let alone any luxury.
If you want people to vote there are other parties than red and blue you can promote.
My “politics” are not supporting any corrupted criminal with blood on his hands.
You’re gonna have to be more specific, fella. There isn’t a single politician on this shitty rock who doesn’t have blood on their hands.
What have you done besides make bad arguments online about why Gazans should just accept that the price for your little “electoral protest” is their lives?
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And if you don’t vote that genocide will come to the USA too
Always our bodies are the favorite props of the white left, bodies can be martyrs for their cause, and won’t act as agents for ours.
Benda N3aesh. We want to live.
The people who vote Trump consider some of those slabs to be pros, not cons.
That’s absolutely true, but that’s not the point of this meme.
He lets them be who they want to be, and a lot of them think and act like him.
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I don’t think many people are saying that Biden is the same as Trump or just as bad as Trump. I think most progressives, for instance, would agree that Biden is better than Trump, it’s just that that’s such a low bar. I mean, are liberals really surprised that people aren’t all that impressed with a president whose main selling point is that he’s not as bad as the only alternative? Now, I get that liberals don’t see it that way, I understand that liberals, apparently, are really very happy with Joe Biden, but for the rest of us he is only the least bad option.
The actual argument is that we can do a lot better, but disingenuous political hacks shriek “THAT MEANS YOU THINK BOTH ARE THE EXACT SAME!!!1” and so we’re stuck with voting “not the other guy” for the rest of our lives as the wealth gap keeps widening, everything gets less affordable, the climate is still worsening, and nothing improves in any meaningful capacity.
We COULD do a lot better if it wasn’t for all those idiots sitting under the scales. There’s a shit load of people that actively want everything on the right side of that scale. There’s groups of people actively supporting Israeli because they believe it’ll bring about the apocalypse and let Jesus return.
Hagee has MILLIONS of followers. And not on twitter, in real life. People who live their lives in service to his vision. People who donate money and time to the cause.
And those are just the zealots. There’s millions more that do whatever these people say “just to be on the safe side” in case they’re right.
In total they compromise about 15-20% of the population, which is roughly the entire population of France or the UK. https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/10/28/22750589/what-the-latest-data-tells-us-about-christian-nationalism-pew-research-center-andrew-whitehead/
These people cannot be reasoned with, they are blood bound members of a death cult and the only recourse we have is to out vote them. It fucking sucks.
We could do a lot better right now, but biden has demonstrated time and again that he won’t take action even when he can. The genocide in Gaza is the perfect example. He’ll say he’s sad and frustrated but then supplies israel even more to continue their genocide. It’s hard to believe that if we just vote in democrats hard enough that they will take action when they refuse to take action on things they have the power to right now.
I’m just blocking the idiots that post these. So tired already of their bullshit.
That’s not what is being addressed here and I think you know that.
There are LOTS of people who equate the two sides and say they are no different. This is a toxic lie and you shouldn’t defend it
There is not. Most people who criticize Biden believe we could do better including not supporting the mass killing and ethnic cleansing or Palestinians by the Israeli state.
And the reality is that as far as the presidency is concerned on that specific topic we have a choice between someone who has been maintaining the existing status quo vis a vis Israel and Palestine but has been successfully pressured into at least looking like he’s trying to stop it by his base and the guy who, last time he was in office, made it worse by moving the Israeli embassy to Jerusalem and several other actions, plus everything else wrong with his policies. As far as the presidency goes, those are the only two options, so while we could maybe have done better before, we don’t have a different option now.
So, between “bad but can be influenced to be better” and “far, far, demonstrably worse and only descending,” the only two actual options, which should people vote for?
I won’t tell any one who they should vote for. However, I think the time to influence the president is now. We’ll see if he is influencable for this particular horror.
Have you tried to speak up to your elected officials to influence the US government to change it’s current position so that we aren’t enabling the Israeli government in its massacre of the Palestinean people?
It’s plain to anyone who is willing to see that this administration has been influenced in a positive direction vis a vis Israel, and they are doing much more to help the Palestinian people than the “turn Gaza into a radioactive parking lot” crew that is the other option will do should they regain power. And yes, I have called the offices of my elected representatives, which didn’t go very far because they’re Republicans.
I do not share your compunction about telling people that a vote for better is better, even if better is not ideal, because I’m an adult who has been paying attention to how it has been and is promised to be worse. There is no viable third party, and mathematically there will not be until every state changes away from First Past the Post, which will not happen before the election. Therefore, the better of the two parties, obviously the Democrats, should be voted for. Full stop. Up and down the ballot. Anyone who decides to not vote this way is indicating that they are fine with the Republicans regaining power, and aren’t allowed to complain about the leapords eating their face should they win. The only instance in which voting third party is acceptable is for smaller local elections, and even then that’s if they did a good job canvassing. You should help them canvass, if there are any nearby.
I am too, believe it or not, an adult. I have different values that lead me to different decisions. I’ve refrained from condescending to you even though we disagree. I hope shining a light on that will change the tenor of this conversation.
Regarding Gaza, I see that the administration has been inching away from the full support of Israel. But from I can tell, it’s been wholly rhetorical. While I would like a long term ceasefire, I know that that’s unlikely at this moment. However, this doesn’t mean that the Biden administration lacks leverage. They continue to supply the IDF with weapons. Biden needs to stop this. Second, threaten cutting off funding to Israel. We average about 3 billion dollars in yearly aid to Israel. The last time a present threaten to cut off funding to Israel was HW Bush in 1991.
Those would be two material and immediate changes that would make sense to me. Next, support resolutions with other western countries in the UN to move towards a long term ceasefire. Get them to open more land crossing to allow for additional aid to enter via truck. The roads exist. We don’t need to build a port.
These steps, would be meaningful. I think it would influence uncommitted voters in swing states. Biden is influenceable now because we are entering into an election. Staying uncommitted means that we have leverage.
I hope that framing makes sense even if you don’t agree with it.
Those are good things to want. Since we’re talking about elections, it’s worth mentioning that of the grand total of two options, only democrats have even a slight possibility for them to happen, wheras the Republicans are saying that Gaza should be nuked, which is worse than what’s happening right now, I’m sure you’ll agree. Which is to say nothing of literally every single other issue where the Rs are universally much worse.
Feel free to appear uncommitted right up until the general, at which point you and everyone else trying to extract concessions needs to show up. And as long as that happens, I’m sorry for implying you’re not an adult.
Somehow you scrolled past a dozen comments proving you wrong to lie about it here
Every comment I scrolled past was some form of agreement. The parent to this comment was the first one critical of the OP.
I don’t know what else to say. I’m being sincere. I’m not interested in some victory points. I’d like my views to be taken seriously and not flattened to farsical stance. I’d like good faith interactions, but understand that this is a passionate project for many.
I’m open to discussion if you want to engage in one that isn’t focused on trying to dunk on your opponent.
Wow, it’s almost like their’s a third candidate running on similar policy changes… Cost of living, environment and improving people’s lives in a meaningful capacity.
Kennedy is an antivax idiot.
“For many, many years, I think parents were so gaslighted, and they were scapegoated, and they were vilified and marginalized, so that even parents of kids who were very, very badly injured, knew what happened to their kid, but they were just reluctant to talk about it. And I think now those days are over,” Kennedy said.
“We – our job is to resist and to talk about it to everybody. If you’re walking down the street – and I do this now myself, which is, you know, I don’t want to do – I’m not a busybody. I see somebody on a hiking trail carrying a little baby and I say to him, ‘Better not get him vaccinated.’ And he heard that from me. If he hears it from 10 other people, maybe he won’t do it, you know, maybe he will save that child.”
Kennedy repeated later in the podcast: “If you’re one of 10 people that goes up to a guy, a man or a woman, who’s carrying a baby, and says, ‘Don’t vaccinate that baby,’ when they hear that from 10 people, it’ll make an impression on ‘em, you know. And we all kept our mouth shut. Don’t keep your mouth shut anymore. Confront everybody on it.”
On a different podcast, he said "Every one of us has an obligation to do a civil disobedience every day. And that could just be walking up to another person – a mother who’s carrying a baby, like I did this morning – and saying, ‘Before you vaccinate that baby, do your independent research.’”
So either he changed his mind – in which case he should very loudly and publicly say he was wrong and recant his remarks – or he’s a fucking liar.
As a potential voter of his. I guess I don’t really care? If I was never allowed to change my opinion, I wouldn’t be able to grow as a person. With his most recent statement, he’s not anti-vaccine. I can find it but I don’t feel like it right now.
Talk is one thing, actions are another. Give the guy a break.
God forbid I have an opinion about Biden’s old age. Another 4 years of inflation out the wazoo, 4 more years of a state sponsored genocide in Gaza, 4 more years giving $75 billion in assistance to Ukraine. We REALLY don’t have ANYTHING else better to spend it on?
I don’t know about this candidate in general, but there’s no chance anyone outside of the democrat-republican approval filter will get anywhere near the presidency. It’s like the myth of “anyone can be rich if they put their mind to it and work hard enough”. In theory enough votes could get any candidate the presidency, but in practice it’s impossible (with even lower odds than becoming individually rich).
Especially with that attitude.
Gawd. Do we have to get one of these braindead posts every damn day? You think it’s convincing anyone?
Biden’s concerns aren’t people choosing Trump. Those voters are fixed and committed. Biden has to worry about Democratic voters getting so frustrated with the system that they check out. These posts are practically (if not actually) designed to do exactly that.
Democrats listen up! Bitching at voters is not an effective campaign strategy! Learn something from Hillary or suffer the same fate!
It’s insane that anyone is doing the work of defending either. We deserve significantly better.
The lesser of two evils is still evil. This is just a plain statement of fact. Like sure, I’d rather eat a turd sandwich than be immersed and drowned in shit, but that doesn’t make the turd in the sandwich any less of a piece of shit.
Voters have the right to call a turd a piece of shit, even if that’s their least bad option. And if certain politicians don’t like being called out for doing shitty things, they can also you know, stop doing shitty things.
Conversely, politicians who are not for the “drown people in shit” policy, don’t get a free pass for increasing the amount of turds in sandwiches.
PS . I’m not an American and don’t vote in your country’s elections.
PS2. Sorry for all the shit analogies.
PS2. Sorry for all the shit analogies.
don’t worry it’s fine there’s plenty of turds downvoting you
Brandon 2024, warts and all. Fuck the republican traitor filth.
A lot of demonstration here of people who think politics and democracy is strictly voting, and approximately about once every four years.
The self-reports in these threads are wild.
I’m sure the comments will be full of calm and logical discussions.
Hexbear users incoming.
They’re already here, look at the later comments and vote tallies.
First I did creating an account was block that far right fascist instance
They are all on their .world alts
I was gonna call out the “grammar” one, since a person’s grammar really isn’t all that big a deal… Then I remembered reading one of his tweets a few days ago. It was somewhere around 200 words, all caps, and zero punctuation.
I can’t. I can’t do four more years of this guy’s fucking tweets. Guys. Please.
I mean materially supporting genocide is pretty fucking bad
this is a bad faith reading of a basic ass fucking tenant of socialist theory. democrats, party of the educated, are feigning ignorance to try and silence dissent.
Second someone starts arguing to theory, I know they don’t understand a damn lick of it beyond surface level word parroting
The socialist position is that one candidate is measurably worse for literally every demographic to which a socialist must be an ally to, and that is the end of the debate.
Dems are promoting pragmatism, which can be an extremely useful strategy.
Useful at maintaining an existing power structures, maybe.
Kissinger was ever the pragmatist
